Get Curious, Not Furious

That one time when I made friends with a Christian Nationalist

This is the transcript of a sermon I preached on March 9, 2025, at the Unitarian Church in Charleston. Read the sermon or watch the video (for ad-libs and other funny bits):

Just over a decade ago, I taught religion classes at Midlands Technical College in Columbia as an adjunct professor. One year, in my comparative religion class, I had an older gentleman as a student who used a wheelchair because diabetes had cost him part of his leg. He was a Vietnam veteran, going to classes on his VA benefits. He also was a Christian Nationalist who had been convicted of federal tax fraud not long before he began attending my class.

There is a page on this man at the Southern Poverty Law Center website outlining his past actions and his desire to see the mass murder of Jews, non-whites and "race traitors." I did not know anything about him that day he came into my classroom. All I know is this: he took a special interest in me. He would come to class early and stay late. He wanted to tell me about his time in the Aryan Nation. He showed me photos and told me about his exploits over the years.

He even told me that he had not wanted to take a religion class in the first place but enrolled because he needed the credits. He told me that when he walked into the class for the first time and saw that I was the instructor, he thought to himself, "Great. I don't want to take this class, and now I have to listen to a dyke tell me about religion."

Here's the thing, though. I really came to like this guy, and he told me his reaction to me when he first came to class after we had spent several weeks talking before and after class. He knew, by then, I would find the story funny, which I did.

He was not shy about his beliefs during class. There were many Black and Jewish students in my class, and I was clear with this man that I would not tolerate any hate speech or even microaggression in class. He agreed and kept his promise.

Then, one day, he told the whole class a story. While he was a member of the KKK, he was taught, and he believed, that Black people have no soul – that they're not even truly human beings. Something about that nagged at him, though, and he decided to find out for himself. He went to a predominantly Black church one Sunday and talked with many in the congregation.

He told us that at that moment, he realized that the KKK was wrong. "Black people do have souls," he told the class. "That's when I decided to leave the KKK." We were all astonished at his story, but then he got to the punchline: "But I still hate Jews."

Well, baby steps, right? Still, we were all aghast at the miraculous story that he told. It made me remember the power of getting to know people who we would rather demonize. I spent hours with this man, who has sworn to use violence against dykes like me, and he got to know me. He even invited me to a backyard barbeque at his house. He told me his son wouldn't like it, but as his guest, I would be safe. I politely declined the invitation.

I was reminded of my budding friendship with a Christian Nationalist when I read about a Black man named Daryl Davis, a blues musician who has spent decades befriending and dialoguing with KKK members. On a recent podcast, Davis talks about how he stumbled into this odd vocation one night while playing in an otherwise all-white band at an all-white bar in Maryland. One guy approached him afterward and said he admired his piano playing and wanted to buy Davis a drink. The man told him it was the first time he'd ever had a drink with a Black man because he was a member of the KKK.

The man was so taken with Davis that he gave him his phone number and asked him to call whenever he was playing so he could come. And come he did, bringing along many other Klansmen to hear him. After Davis moved on from that band, he lost touch with the Klan member but says he thought of him again because Davis says he never understood the roots of racism. He wanted to know how people could hate him without knowing him. He wanted to find that Klansman again and ask that question.

When he finally tracked the man down, he told Davis that he had quit the KKK, but he did put Davis in touch with the man who led Maryland's Klan. This began Davis' 45-year odyssey into befriending Klan members. In that time, 200 Klansmen have given up their robes, which Davis has collected and keeps in his home to remind him of the dent he's made in racism.

I tell these stories to you this morning at a time when it feels like we're backtracking on a lot of progress in this country. The current administration is doing everything it can to roll back diversity, equity, and inclusion. It is erasing transgender people, denying them health care along with their very existence.

It is continuing the assault on the bodily autonomy of women and is even considering legislation that would throw many women off the voter rolls. This doesn't even take into consideration the illegal gutting that is taking place in government agencies and programs, as Congress stands by and allows the firing of thousands of government workers and the shutting down of Congressionally approved agencies.

Friends, I fear that we are in an ongoing coup against our constitutional republic. So far, only the courts seem willing to try to stop it, but who knows if the administration will abide by rulings it doesn't like. The truth is no one is coming to save us. It's up to us to do what we can right where we are.

I think it's fair to ask how we got to this moment. One answer I found was in a book by Buddhist psychologist and author Ken Wilbur called "Trump and a Post-Truth World." According to Wilbur's Integral Evolution Theory, all societies are on a trajectory of evolving consciousness. We are in this turmoil now because what he calls the "Green leading edge" has lost its way and has failed to lead us successfully into a world-centered, pluralistic and postmodern world of unity and peace.

In his system, "green" is the highest evolutionary level that we humans have attained to date. We have evolved from other levels of consciousness through egocentric Red, into ethnocentric and authoritarian Amber and through the world-centric, rational, and individualistic stage of Orange to arrive in Green. But, since Green has lost its way, evolution has had to back up to a more stable point before it can grow again. That point appears to be solidly in that Amber authoritarian place.

I got a bit angry with Wilbur as I read this book because he placed the blame for all of this squarely at the feet of liberals, who he says have failed to help those caught in Red, Amber, and Orange to evolve. Instead, we've demonized those who have demonized us, calling them deplorable and believing they are either stupid or crazy.

The truth is this, though. Unless we who are on the Green leading edge – the Daryl Davises of the world who know that if we seek to understand others and let them get to know us – we will never be able to evolve past where we are now. It may seem unfair that it is up to us to teach others how to live with compassion and kindness until we realize that we all evolved from those same color-coded beliefs. As Davis says, Klansmen aren't born into ethnocentric or authoritarian belief systems. They're taught.

Those who are in evolutionary stages where they hold egocentric, authoritarian, and individualistic beliefs are not inferior to us; they just haven't had a chance to learn about a different way to live.

We are the ones we are waiting for, my friends. We are the ones who must make that first move and adopt the method Davis used for befriending the KKK. He says, "I get curious, not furious."

As author and actor Stephen Fry once said: "The only reason people do not know much is because they do not care to know. They are incurious. Incuriosity is the oddest and most foolish failing there is."

This is how we build a unified world, friends. We get curious, not furious. Instead of rejecting and shunning those we disagree with or becoming furious with them and blaming them for the state of the world, we must get curious. We must be the ones to reach out to them, to talk with them about their beliefs, their concerns and how they want to live in this world. When we can do that, we'll find that we have much more in common than we might believe.

The one thing we all have in common, no matter our political worldview, is that "all of our moral judgments are grounded in concerns about harm," according to social psychologist Kurt Gray, who is the author of "Outraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common Ground."

Gray says we all may agree that things like abortion or immigration involve harm, but we disagree on who the victim is. Conservatives worry about immigrants harming US citizens, while liberals worry about families fleeing violence in their home countries. The point of commonality here is that we all want to protect those we see as vulnerable. We all want to protect ourselves, our families, and our country from harm.

If that's true, then we must find a way to talk to each other. We must get curious about each other instead of being furious with each other.

How do we begin? We think we can win people over with facts and figures – showing them the factual damage that's being done to the country in real-time. That, Gray says, won't work. Instead, like I did with my Christian Nationalist student, and how Daryl Davis has done with KKK members, we have to get curious and share our stories with them.

Davis says he knows he's getting somewhere with a Klansman when they begin to get curious about him. Early conversations, Davis says, consisted of him asking them questions, but they never reciprocated. Then, at some point, they became curious about him and what he believed. I encountered this same phenomenon with my student. In the beginning, he wanted to share stories about his life, but he never asked about mine. I didn't volunteer anything, but eventually, he got curious about me. I think we both came to see one another in a new light from those conversations. Just as he saw that Black people have souls, I hope I convinced him of the humanity of LGBTQ+ people in those exchanges.

So, how do we start getting curious instead of furious? I want to give you a three-step tool this morning from an organization called Essential Partners. The steps spell "CIV," the start of CIVil conversations.

Start with C, which means Connect. This is where our curiosity comes in. Don't start with politics. Instead, ask people about their lives. Ask them deep questions about their hopes and dreams. Ask them about their first love or the last time they cried. Studies have shown that strangers are open to having deeper conversations than we might believe, and it can create a sense of connection.

Then move on to I, which means Invite. Instead of asking someone, "How could you vote like that?" say, "I know we voted differently, but I'm interested in hearing about and understanding your thoughts and feelings behind your choice." Then, do the most difficult part – really listen and try to understand them, even if you disagree.

Lastly, move to V or Validate: Sharing our stories with others, especially those we may disagree with, feels vulnerable, so if someone does share with you, validate them. Thank them for sharing. Echo back to them their perceptions of harm that you heard from them. That doesn't mean you agree with them; you're just trying to show that you understand.

That's the main goal here: to understand – to be curious instead of furious. We're not trying to win an argument. We're trying to save our society by acknowledging our diversity and seeking common ground based on what kind of harm we seek to eradicate from our world.

Now, this doesn't mean you can, or should, try to connect with everyone. There are what journalist Amanda Ripley calls "conflict entrepreneurs" out there who seek to keep us divided so they can continue to profit from our disarray, but those people are not the majority. They will never be curious about the lives of others. When you encounter someone who has a zero-sum view of the world, walk away. Some people will never be convinced, but as Ken Wilbur says, if just 10% of the population gets curious instead of furious, then the green leading edge of consciousness evolution will again move forward toward a unified society.

We have the power to change the world, friends. If you want proof, look at the handful of people who have so radically changed our world since January. If it works for them, I guarantee it will work for us. But we must be willing to make the first move, to reach out in curiosity to those we may be blaming for the current state of the world.

As Christian writer Henri Nouwen once wrote: "We cannot love issues, but we can love people, and the love of people reveals to us the way to deal with issues."

This is how we save the world, friends: We stop loving issues and begin loving people because when we can love everyone around us, no matter what our disagreements are, we will find creative and just ways to deal with issues. First, we must stop being furious and get curious. This moment is our window of opportunity. The fate of our nation rests on our willingness to build bridges instead of walls.

I truly believe that loving curiosity is what will ultimately save us and put us back on an evolutionary track toward unity. Some may scoff that Love has been defeated in these times, but to paraphrase GK Chesterton's quote about Christianity: "Love has not been tried and found wanting. Love has been found difficult and left untried."

It's easy to get furious, but we don't need more furious people in the world. We need more curious people, ready to love wastefully and move this world toward that Love that will finally conquer all. Again, not everyone has to believe this, but when enough of us double down on love, as Nouwen says, we will find a way to solve our issues.

If you're furious this morning, I invite you to get curious. I invite you, as St. Francis' famous prayer says, to seek to understand rather than be understood. Daryl Davis has done this, and there are far fewer KKK members in the world than when he began.

If one man can do that, think what we can do together. So, let me ask you: Where will you get curious instead of furious this week? If you're willing to take that first step, I'm pretty sure we can create a world where Love will ultimately prevail.

Oh, and do you want to know what happened to my student?

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Music for the Journey

“World on Fire” - Sarah McLachlan

The world's on fire and
It's more than I can handle
I'll tap into the water
(Try and bring my share)
I try to bring more
More than I can handle
(Bring it to the table)
Bring what I am able

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About the Motley Mystic:

The Motley Mystic is an online community for people who have realized that the truth speaks with many voices. No one religion, philosophy, institution, or dogma captures the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. No one needs to swear allegiance to one line of thought or belief to discern Truth because Love is the only thing that’s real. That’s what we explore at the Motley Mystic - all the tools and strategies we need to remove our barriers to Love and live fully as our true Divine Self.

Candace Chellew is the founder of Motley Mystic as well as Jubilee! Circle, an interfaith spiritual community in Columbia, S.C., which existed from 2010-2024. She is currently the pastor at Clayton Memorial Unitarian Universalist Church in Newberry, S.C. She is also the author of Bulletproof Faith: A Spiritual Survival Guide for Gay and Lesbian Christians, published in 2008 by Jossey-Bass. She is the founder and senior editor emeritus of Whosoever: An Online Magazine for LGBTQ People of Faith. She is also a musician and avid animal lover. She has been a student of “A Course in Miracles” since 201” and today considers herself a recovering Christian.